[Ed J]

Hi Everybody,

Jesus second coming occurred on "Pentecost"!

Let's have an orderly discussion here. Post as much as you like.
But "only" one question Per Post, so we can understand "Bible Truth".
Let's 'try' not to accuse, I know how hard that is for some!

Witnessing to the world in behalf of...
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Matt Smith]

If Jesus' second coming was on Pentecost, why were the apostles still looking for his second coming several years later? And why hasn't the resurrection and judgement taken place? Why haven't the wicked been destroyed? Why hasn't he been seen by his followers?

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2Thess 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

[Ed J]

Matt Smith, on 02 February 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

If Jesus' second coming was on Pentecost, why were the apostles still looking for his second coming several years later? And why hasn't the resurrection and judgement taken place? Why haven't the wicked been destroyed? Why hasn't he been seen by his followers?

1)Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

2)Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time(WE) without sin unto salvation.

3)1Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the A.Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: B.and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them C.in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

4)2Thess 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Hi Matt,

There are three main feasts of God; they are…
Click Here: Sixth Post from top

“The Passover” made possible by
“JESUS MESSIAH”

Started “Pentecost” the “Former Rain” of
“GOD THE FATHER”(HolySpirit)

“Feast of Booths” begins “The Latter Rain” of the
“HOLY SPIRIT”(God The Father)


1)The verse you chose here: occurred BEFORE "Pentecost".
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

2)A personal "Pentecost" promised is for all believers: "THE SECOND TIME"... These three verses together help to better explain...
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him,
and "WE"(Jesus' Father + Jesus)[Isaiah 64:4-5 + Heb.9:28=John 14:23] will come unto him(the believer), and make OUR ABODE WITH HIM.
Heb.9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Isaiah 64:4-5 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God(HolySpirit), beside
thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. Thou(HolySpirit + Jesus: A Personal "Pentecost") meetest him(the Believer) that rejoiceth and
worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

3)1Thess.4:15-17 refers to the last feast: “Feast of Booths”!
A.Re.2:2-3 And I John saw the "HolyCity", new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people, "And GOD Himself" shall be with them, and be their God(YHVH).
B.Eph.5:14: Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
C.Heb,12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight,
and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


"YHVH is GOD"

4)This is the "Day of The LORD": Isaiah 27:1...5 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan
the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. Fury is not in me:
who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.
Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me.


Witnessing to the world in behalf of...
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Timotheos]

Ed J, on 02 February 2010 - 03:18 AM, said:

Jesus second coming occurred on "Pentecost"!

While Jesus is very active in the Pentecost and throughout the Acts I think it would be a mistake to call it his second coming. The Bible, IMHO, leaves that term to when he shall be physically manifest again as in Heb. 9:26,

(Heb 9:28 KJV) "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

I'm not sure why you put this verse with the feast of Pentecost as was written after that time. Even in the context of Hebrews it would fit better with the day of Atonement.

When he appears the second time then there's the resurrection and judgment and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth.

(2 Tim 4:1 KJV) "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

[Ed J]

Timotheos, on 09 February 2010 - 07:13 AM, said:

While Jesus is very active in the Pentecost and throughout the Acts I think it would be a mistake to call it his second coming. The Bible, IMHO, leaves that term to when he shall be physically manifest again as in Heb. 9:26,

(Heb 9:28 KJV) "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

I'm not sure why you put this verse with the feast of Pentecost as was written after that time. Even in the context of Hebrews it would fit better with the day of Atonement.

When he appears the second time then there's the resurrection and judgment and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth.

(2 Tim 4:1 KJV) "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

Hi Timotheos,

What does this verse have to do with anything I said?
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world:
but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Eph.5:14: Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Here is the Verse you quoted in the "Context" from which you have taken it...
2Timothy 3:12-4:4 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of,
knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect,
thoroughly furnished unto all good works. I charge thee therefore before God,
and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke,
exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

1John 4:3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh
is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come;
and even now already is it in the world.

The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.


The systems of religion are antichrist, though they admit Jesus has come in the flesh,
they say assert a 'flesh return' even at the expense of discounting MUCH Scripture...

Heb:13:8: Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
John 6:15: When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force,
................to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
Psalm 29:10 The LORD(YHVH) sitteth upon the flood; yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever.
Psalm 10:16 16: The LORD is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land.
Rv:1:5: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead,
and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Witnessing to the world in behalf of...
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Timotheos]

Ed J, on 09 February 2010 - 11:10 PM, said:

they say assert a 'flesh return' even at the expense of discounting MUCH Scripture...

I'm not sure why you say "flesh return". I never said that. MUCH Scripture is clear though that he will visibly return and reign from Jerusalem.

[Ed J]

Timotheos, on 09 February 2010 - 10:20 PM, said:

Ed J, on 09 February 2010 - 11:10 PM, said:

they say assert a 'flesh return' even at the expense of discounting MUCH Scripture...

I'm not sure why you say "flesh return". I never said that. MUCH Scripture is clear though that he will visibly return and reign from Jerusalem.

Hi Timotheos,

Jesus returned in "Spirit Form" on the day of "Pentecost"; and TRUE Believers seen him!
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE,
.............which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

[Timotheos]

Ed J, on 10 February 2010 - 07:44 PM, said:

Timotheos, on 09 February 2010 - 10:20 PM, said:

Ed J, on 09 February 2010 - 11:10 PM, said:

they say assert a 'flesh return' even at the expense of discounting MUCH Scripture...

I'm not sure why you say "flesh return". I never said that. MUCH Scripture is clear though that he will visibly return and reign from Jerusalem.

Hi Timotheos,

Jesus returned in "Spirit Form" on the day of "Pentecost"; and TRUE Believers seen him!
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE,
.............which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Luke 9:27 is talking about the Transfiguration which Peter clearly explains in 2 Pet 1:16-18

"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. {17} For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. {18} And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount."

You'll have to have a better proof verses to show that Jesus came in some "Spirit Form" on the day of Pentecost. Jesus poured forth the Spirit (Acts 2:33) but I can't think of any verses that say his second coming was on the day of Pentecost.

[Ed J]

Timotheos, on 10 February 2010 - 09:04 PM, said:

Ed J, on 10 February 2010 - 07:44 PM, said:

Timotheos, on 09 February 2010 - 10:20 PM, said:

Ed J, on 09 February 2010 - 11:10 PM, said:

they say assert a 'flesh return' even at the expense of discounting MUCH Scripture...

I'm not sure why you say "flesh return". I never said that. MUCH Scripture is clear though that he will visibly return and reign from Jerusalem.

Hi Timotheos,

Jesus returned in "Spirit Form" on the day of "Pentecost"; and TRUE Believers seen him!
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE,
.............which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Luke 9:27 is talking about the Transfiguration which Peter clearly explains in 2 Pet 1:16-18

"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. {17} For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. {18} And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount."

You'll have to have a better proof verses to show that Jesus came in some "Spirit Form" on the day of Pentecost. Jesus poured forth the Spirit (Acts 2:33) but I can't think of any verses that say his second coming was on the day of Pentecost.

Hi Timotheos,

2 Pet 1:16-18 is talking is talking about the mount of transfiguration while Luke 9:27is referring to "Pentecost"!

This NEXT verse occurred after the resurrection and explains Jesus Going back in to "Spirit Form" to return with his Father.
John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren,
and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 6:62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 17:5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


John 20:17 occured just before "Pentecost" and Acts 2:32-34 is clearly talking about what occurred at "Pentecost"!

Acts 2:32-34 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the HolySpirit,
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,...This verse can be illustrated using Geometry:

"The Large Box" representing "GOD The Father", "The Box" inside and at the right hand position represents "Jesus".



Acts 2:32-34 is the fulfillment of Jesus returning with his Father(HolySpirit) spoken of in John 14:23!
John 14:23: Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:
and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (Isaiah 64:4-5 + Heb.9:28=John 14:23)


Witnessing to the world in behalf of...
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Timotheos]

Ed J, on 11 February 2010 - 12:28 AM, said:

2 Pet 1:16-18 is talking is talking about the mount of transfiguration while Luke 9:27is referring to "Pentecost"!

I'm glad we agree that 2 Peter refers to the mount of transfiguration. I'm still not sure why you insist that Luke 9:27 refers to Pentecost. In Mark's parallel account (9:1), he has the addition of the word "power" - "till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power". This is the same word that 2 Peter 1:16 uses, "when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty." Therefore, Peter connects the saying in Luke 9:27 with the mount of transfiguration.

Furthermore, each gospel writer is careful to preserve the order of events and they even talk about the days in between, which is very unique. The tag of six days (eight in Luke) in the very next verse is a bridge between these events. Jesus mentions some (not all, therefore referring to Peter, James and John) would see the kingdom before they tasted death. Even though it is just six days later that Christ's words are fulfilled this would be a natural consolation for the conversation had been about death.

Quote

This NEXT verse occurred after the resurrection and explains Jesus Going back in to "Spirit Form" to return with his Father.
John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren,
and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 6:62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 17:5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I don't have a problem with Jesus being in Spirit form. This does not mean though that he cannot be seen. Angels are spirit and they can act invisibly or visibly.

Quote

John 20:17 occured just before "Pentecost" and Acts 2:32-34 is clearly talking about what occurred at "Pentecost"!

Acts 2:32-34 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the HolySpirit,
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,...This verse can be illustrated using Geometry:

Acts 2:32-34 is the fulfillment of Jesus returning with his Father(HolySpirit) spoken of in John 14:23!
John 14:23: Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:
and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (Isaiah 64:4-5 + Heb.9:28=John 14:23)

I don't have a problem with what you've written here. What I have a problem with is calling Pentecost Jesus' "second coming". That I believe is misleading as the Bible uses that term for his visible appearance at the time of the resurrection and the setting up of the kingdom.

[Ed J]

Timotheos, on 11 February 2010 - 09:20 AM, said:

Ed J, on 11 February 2010 - 12:28 AM, said:

2 Pet 1:16-18 is talking is talking about the mount of transfiguration while Luke 9:27is referring to "Pentecost"!

I'm glad we agree that 2 Peter refers to the mount of transfiguration. I'm still not sure why you insist that Luke 9:27 refers to Pentecost. In Mark's parallel account (9:1), he has the addition of the word "power" - "till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power". This is the same word that 2 Peter 1:16 uses, "when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty." Therefore, Peter connects the saying in Luke 9:27 with the mount of transfiguration.

Hi Timotheos,

We should all strive for agreement, as the Scripture says...
1Cor:1:10: Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing,
and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Now that we agree about the mount of transfiguration and that is what Mark 9:1 is talking about as well, go down to verse 9...
Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen,
till the Son of man were risen from the dead. Do you know why Jesus said this to them?

Luke 24:49: And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you:
but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with POWER FROM ON HIGH.
Luke 22:69: Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of THE POWER OF GOD.
These verses are synonymous with each other, why do the systems of religion try to separate them?

Witnessing to the world in behalf of...
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Timotheos, on 11 February 2010 - 09:20 AM, said:

Quote

This NEXT verse occurred after the resurrection and explains Jesus Going back in to "Spirit Form" to return with his Father.
John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren,
and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 6:62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 17:5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I don't have a problem with Jesus being in Spirit form. This does not mean though that he cannot be seen. Angels are spirit and they can act invisibly or visibly.

Great.

Ed J

[Ed J]

Timotheos, on 11 February 2010 - 09:20 AM, said:

Quote

John 20:17 occured just before "Pentecost" and Acts 2:32-34 is clearly talking about what occurred at "Pentecost"!

Acts 2:32-34 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the HolySpirit,
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,...This verse can be illustrated using Geometry:

Acts 2:32-34 is the fulfillment of Jesus returning with his Father(HolySpirit) spoken of in John 14:23!
John 14:23: Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:
and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (Isaiah 64:4-5 + Heb.9:28=John 14:23)

1) I don't have a problem with what you've written here.

2) What I have a problem with is calling Pentecost Jesus' "second coming".

3) That I believe is misleading as the Bible uses that term for his visible appearance at the time of the resurrection and the setting up of the kingdom.

Hi Timotheos,

1) Great!

2) Opinion.

3) You need Spiritual Eyes to see!
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
.............Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Witnessing to the world in behalf of...
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Timotheos]

Ed J, on 11 February 2010 - 09:40 PM, said:

Timotheos, on 11 February 2010 - 09:20 AM, said:

Quote

John 20:17 occured just before "Pentecost" and Acts 2:32-34 is clearly talking about what occurred at "Pentecost"!

Acts 2:32-34 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the HolySpirit,
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,...This verse can be illustrated using Geometry:

Acts 2:32-34 is the fulfillment of Jesus returning with his Father(HolySpirit) spoken of in John 14:23!
John 14:23: Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:
and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (Isaiah 64:4-5 + Heb.9:28=John 14:23)

1) I don't have a problem with what you've written here.

2) What I have a problem with is calling Pentecost Jesus' "second coming".

3) That I believe is misleading as the Bible uses that term for his visible appearance at the time of the resurrection and the setting up of the kingdom.

Hi Timotheos,

1) Great!

Awesome isn't it? :-D

Quote

2) Opinion.

It's your unsubstantiated opinion.

Quote

3) You need Spiritual Eyes to see!
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
.............Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Boy, if only I had a nickel... this is exactly what the JW was saying about 1914.

I'll repost it as the argument is the same...

Hi may, We are looking for scripture that talk about this 'eye of understanding' that one needs to have in order to see Jesus' coming. I can't find this phrase 'eye of understanding' in the Bible. John 14:19, Matthew 19:28, Acts 24:15 and Matt. 25:31 do not mention it.

Rather, there seems a lot of scripture that contradicts what you are saying. Jesus leaving in the clouds of heaven and coming back in like manner are evidently to more then just his disciples. These scriptures are clear echoes to Acts 1:11 and involve more then just his disciples.

(Mat 24:30 KJV) "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

(Rev 1:7 KJV) "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Those that pierced him were not his disciples. They were people like the high priest who sentenced him to death.

(Mat 26:64 KJV) "Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

In each of these passage the word "see" is the Greek word "optanomai" (where we get words like optics and optometrist). It has to do with the literal seeing of the eye. Here's the Strong's definition (Greek #3700):

of the primary (middle voice) optomai op'-tom-ahee; which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of oraw - horao 3708 to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from blepw - blepo 991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from eidw - eido 1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while qeaomai - theaomai 2300, and still more emphatically its intensive qewrew - theoreo 2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and skopew - skopeo 4648 a watching from a distance):--appear, look, see, shew self.

The word is also used in passages like Heb. 9:28 where it is translated as 'appear',

(Heb 9:28 KJV) "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

This aligns with a natural reading of Acts 1:11 that Jesus will actually physically appear on the earth a second time just like he did the first time.

When Jesus returns the throne of his Kingdom will be set up in Jerusalem to fulfill the words of the prophets.

(Jer 3:17 KJV) "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart."

This is in accordance with what Jesus says about this time in Matt. 25:31-32,

(Mat 25:31-32 KJV) "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: {32} And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

Jesus coming in glory with his angels is also spoken of in 2 Thess. 1:7-10. Again, this coming is not to his disciples.

(2 Th 1:7-10 KJV) "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, {8} In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: {9} Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; {10} When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

The judgment brought will be destruction from the "presence" of the Lord. This word "presence" (Strongs 4384) suggests again a bodily presence.

4383. prosopon, pros'-o-pon; from G4314 and ops (the visage; from G3700); the front (as being towards view), i.e. the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by impl. presence, person:--(outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men's) person, presence.

So you see there are a lot of scripture that does not fit with this 'invisible' return theory. If there was one verse I would like to get an answer on it would be Matthew 24:26-27,30.

"If anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ...At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

[Ed J]

Timotheos, on 12 February 2010 - 01:19 AM, said:

[/indent]So you see there are a lot of scripture that does not fit with this 'invisible' return theory. If there was one verse I would like to get an answer on it would be Matthew 24:26-27,30.

"If anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ...At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

Hi Timotheos,

Scrambling a bunch of verses together without "any explanation" of how they go together,
only provides proof of your beliefs to yourself! These verses are for those who reject the "Gospel".


Here is some REAL "Bible Truth" for you...

First: This is the message of the whore of Rev.17:3 and the dragon (Rev.12:3) she rides...
Prob.7:19-27 For the goodman(Jesus) is not at home, he is (in heaven right now) gone a long journey:
He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed(to rapture you out).
With her much fair speech she(this whore) caused him(guess who) to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.
He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;
Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth.
Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.
For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.
Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. (Isaiah 28:15-20)


Secondly: Here is what Jesus said to the Pharisees of his day...

Luke 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come,
.....................he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there (he is in heaven right now preparing for his visual return) !
[[for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you]]...Sorry to hear that YOU NEVER HAD your own Personal "Pentecost".

2 Cor.4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world (satan: Rev.12:3) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



The "THREE" main “FEASTS OF GOD” are…

1) “The Passover”; made possible by
“JESUS MESSIAH”

2) Which started “Pentecost” the “Former Rain” of
“GOD THE FATHER”; “Spirit [of] God”(Holy Spirit)

3) “Feast of Booths” begins “The Latter Rain” of the
“HOLY SPIRIT”(God The Father); “Feast [of] Tabernacles”.


We are NOW in the "Day of the LORD": the last of the feasts: “Feast of Booths”...“The Latter Rain”!
Luke 21:34-35 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting,
.....................and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
.....................For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Prob.7:23 Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
Psalm 69:22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.



............................"YHVH GOD is ONE"
............................13th Post from top <--Click Here.

Micah 4:1: But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established
................in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Psalm 124:7-125:1 Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.
............................Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.
............................They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.

Witnessing to the world in behalf of...
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Stephen5]

No one knows the time of the Lord's second advent .... He has not revealed this time in scripture
[Matthew 24:13; 1Thessalonians 5:1-4; Acts 1:6-7]

His intervention will come in two stages .... first to bring tribulation against an unbelieving world which will last for 2550 days [1260 days + 1260 days + 30 days] and then He will appear at the end of the judgment to rule on the earth for 1000 years [Daniel 9:24-27; 12; Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

There is a time that one cannot know ...... the beginning of His judgment ..... this will come with no warning [Luke 21:35; Revelation 3:10; 6:15-17]

There is a time that one can know if one is living during the 2550 days .... He appearing at the end of it

The events of this time frame are already given in scripture and the time of His appearing to the world will be predictable

Stephen

This post has been edited by Stephen5: 15 February 2010 - 03:38 AM

[Timotheos]

Ed J, on 12 February 2010 - 10:00 PM, said:

Timotheos, on 12 February 2010 - 01:19 AM, said:

[/indent]So you see there are a lot of scripture that does not fit with this 'invisible' return theory. If there was one verse I would like to get an answer on it would be Matthew 24:26-27,30.

"If anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ...At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

Hi Timotheos,

Scrambling a bunch of verses together without "any explanation" of how they go together,
only provides proof of your beliefs to yourself! These verses are for those who reject the "Gospel".

Thanks for the slam. Ask a simple question and I get this as a response?

I'm not sure how you can say this and do the same yourself?

Quote

Here is some REAL "Bible Truth" for you...

First: This is the message of the whore of Rev.17:3 and the dragon (Rev.12:3) she rides...
Prob.7:19-27 For the goodman(Jesus) is not at home, he is (in heaven right now) gone a long journey:
He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed(to rapture you out).
With her much fair speech she(this whore) caused him(guess who) to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.
He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;
Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth.
Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.
For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.
Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. (Isaiah 28:15-20)

I have no idea what this has to do with the topic at hand.

Quote

Secondly: Here is what Jesus said to the Pharisees of his day...

Luke 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come,
.....................he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there (he is in heaven right now preparing for his visual return) !
[[for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you]]...Sorry to hear that YOU NEVER HAD your own Personal "Pentecost".

First of all, I find it hard to believe that the kingdom was within the Pharisees to whom he spoke. In Matt 23:28 he had said they were "within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity." Second of all, you're trying to prove the kingdom came on Pentecost with a verse that says it is within somebody before the Pentecost. Boy, am I confused with your reasoning.

There's a better explanation of this verse. Just look at a modern translation like the ESV, "behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." The answer is indicative of how Jesus responds to the Pharisees questions to tempt him. He draws their attention to consider that their king is standing right in front of them. The King is synonymous with his Kingdom. They looked for a sign but the signs were all ready evident. "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." (Luke 11:20).

So his first advent came without observation. When Christ comes the second time, he will come with outward show: "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: andall kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."
(Revelation 1:7).

Quote

2 Cor.4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world (satan: Rev.12:3) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The god of this world is not the satan of Rev. 12:3. See my post here
http://www.openbible...indpost&p=11620

Quote

The "THREE" main "FEASTS OF GOD" are…

1) "The Passover"; made possible by
"JESUS MESSIAH"

2) Which started "Pentecost" the "Former Rain" of
"GOD THE FATHER"; "Spirit [of] God"(Holy Spirit)

3) "Feast of Booths" begins "The Latter Rain" of the
"HOLY SPIRIT"(God The Father); "Feast [of] Tabernacles".


We are NOW in the "Day of the LORD": the last of the feasts: "Feast of Booths"..."The Latter Rain"!

Sorry I haven't looked at this in awhile and my Bible is not with me at the moment. From what I recall the "latter rain" and the "feast of tabernacles" usher in when Christ returns and establishes God's kingdom on earth. This is why all nations are said to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles in the age to come.

(Zec 14:16 KJV) "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

This is truly the great abundant harvest of the latter rain.

Quote

Luke 21:34-35 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting,
.....................and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
.....................For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Prob.7:23 Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
Psalm 69:22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.



............................"YHVH GOD is ONE"
............................13th Post from top <--Click Here.

Micah 4:1: But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established
................in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Psalm 124:7-125:1 Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.
............................Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.
............................They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.

I'm not sure how any of what you quote relates to what you're saying?

[Ed J]

Timotheos, on 12 February 2010 - 01:19 AM, said:

Ask a simple question?

Hi Timotheos,

I'm sorry, but I didn't see 'a simple question' amongst all the opinionated commentary?
Could you please repeat your "Simple Question"?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitycbiblecode.org

[Timotheos]

Ed J, on 15 February 2010 - 11:37 PM, said:

Timotheos, on 12 February 2010 - 01:19 AM, said:

Ask a simple question?

Hi Timotheos,

I'm sorry, but I didn't see 'a simple question' amongst all the opinionated commentary?
Could you please repeat your "Simple Question"?

Thanks Ed J, It was at the end.

Quote

So you see there are a lot of scripture that does not fit with this 'invisible' return theory. If there was one verse I would like to get an answer on it would be Matthew 24:26-27,30.

"If anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ...At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

[Ed J]

Timotheos, on 12 February 2010 - 01:19 AM, said:

So you see there are a lot of scripture that does not fit with this 'invisible' return theory. If there was one verse I would like to get an answer on it would be Matthew 24:26-27,30.

"If anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ...At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

Hi Timotheos,

That is because there will be NO Physical second coming; The "Second coming" occurred at "Pentecost"!
Jesus now resides at "GOD The Father's" right hand in "Spirit Form" in the hearts of all believers
(all believers that have had their own personal "Pentecost"(John 3:6), many are still lead by the flesh)!

Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses,
let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience
the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith(a Personal Pentecost);
who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Geometry(Shapes) and Gematria(Numbers) help to illustrate this "Bible Truth" rather perfectly!
"The Large Box" represents "GOD The Father", "The Box" inside represents "Jesus" Spiritually at The Father's right hand.
........

Witnessing to the world in behalf of...
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org